>>>What is the 'Gospel of Jesus Christ'? -- this might be a crucial
point in this conversation.
Hmmmm... maybe the phrase "Gospel of Jesus Christ" is a Mormon
expression; I had assumed other Christians also used it. Mormons use
that phrase to refer to all of the teachings of Jesus Christ. We speak
of it as His plan for us.
>>>If you don't mind, let's describe church of 1st century again with
an accent not on what exactly they taught -- their message is now
stored in the Bible, but on everything else.
I've previously spoken of a chapter in my online book called "The True
Church". In that chapter I described the church in the 1st century
from three viewpoints: the organization and officers, the officers
being guided by revelation, and the officers having authority from
God.
In that chapter I also give some information from secular history
about the conditions in the church during the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th
centuries. I give a statement by John Wesley, and I comment briefly on
the doctrine of the Trinity as given in the Athanasian Creed.
Is this the type of description of the church that you're looking for?
The URL for the chapter is
www.shire.net/mormon/church.html
>>>I'm not trying to overload you with the already
barrage of questions, but *** posted an interesting link: After
reading that page in it's entirety, my question is do you believe ALL
the policy put forth in this writing? If not, to what purpose do you
exclude portions?
Following are my comments about that web page.
>>>A cult of Christianity is a group of people, which claiming to be
Christian, embraces a particular doctrinal system taught by an
individual leader, group of leaders, or organization, which (system)
denies (either explicitly or implicitly) one or more of the central
doctrines of the Christian faith as taught in the sixty-six books of
the Bible.
>>>The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) fits this
description, making it a pseudo-Christian religion. That is, the
history, theology and practices of Mormonism show the religious
movement to be outside of orthodox Christianity.
That is a very narrow definition of "Christian". Basically, it says
that one is a pseudo-Christian if he or she doesn't accept all of the
creeds of orthodox Christianity, orthodox Christianity referring to
the established Christian churches. The statement about doctrines as
taught in the 66 books of the Bible is inconsistent due to the many
interpretations of the Bible. Basically, the statement is saying that
one is a pseudo-Christian unless he or she believes and teaches as the
orthodox churches do. When we Mormons call ourselves Christian, we are
using a simple definition that one is a Christian who is a disciple or
follower of Jesus Christ.
>>>Mormons believe that their church is ''the only true and living
church upon the face of the whole earth' (D&C 1:30), the only
organization authorized by the Almighty to preach his gospel and
administer to ordinances of salvation, the only Church which has the
power to save'' (Mormon Doctrine , 1977 ed., p. 136). Mormons either
deny or pervert every essential doctrine of historic Christianity,
including the uniqueness of Christ, the virgin birth, the Trinity, the
authority of Scripture (by relegating it to a position below their
other sacred writings), and salvation by grace through faith.
>>>Therefore, Christian churches rightly do not consider the Mormon
Church to be a Christian church, nor do they accept Mormons as
Christians.
That page then goes on to enumerate how various orthodox Christian
churches say Mormons are not Christian. Even though we Mormons believe
in Christ, worship him as the center of our faith, try to emulate him
in our daily lives, they say we're not Christian because we're
different than the orthodox Christian churches. I guess we'll have to
become politically correct, religiously speaking, to be considered
Christian....
>>>Calling Mormons Christians, or describing the Mormon Church as a
Christian denomination is incorrect. A Christian is a disciple of
Jesus Christ as presented in the Bible.
>>>Just like attaching a Roll Royce logo to a Volkswagen does not make
the latter a Rolls Royce, using the name of Jesus Christ does not make
Mormonism ''Christian.'' Suggesting the Mormon Jesus is ''Christian''
is, in fact, as dishonest as selling a counterfeit watch as a
''Rolex.'' After all, the ''Jesus'' created by the Mormon Church is
far different from - and incompatible with - the biblical Jesus
Christ:
In my online book I have a chapter on "The Nature of God"
www.shire.net/mormon/diety.html read that chapter and then decide for
yourselves if Mormons believe in the Biblical Jesus Christ.
The web page gives a lot of discussion about the Mormon scriptures. I
don't have time to cover everything in the web page, so I'll just
comment on a few things. If you'd like me or other LDS to comment of
specific statements in the web page, please quote them in a reply and
ask that we give our comments about them.
>>>I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of
any book upon the earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man
would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other
book.
Source: Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Deseret Books, Salt Lake
City, UT, 1978, 4:461
>>Over 9,000 corrections in grammar and spelling - as well as changes
distorting the original text - later, that claim can be considered
ludicrous. But there's more. At best, the book is written using occult
methods. It is known for - among other things - its plagiarism of the
King James Bible (using Victorian english in what is supposed to be an
American translation of an ancient, historical record), the absence of
archeological and historical records supporting the book's story, and
an array of anachronisms.
When Joseph Smith said the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any
book on earth, he wasn't referring to mistakes in spelling and
grammar. He was referring, I believe, to the doctrinal content of the
book. Nobody claims that Joseph Smith was an educated man who had a
perfect command of language. Nobody claims the persons who acted as
scribes during the translation made no mistakes.
Concerning use of King James like language in the Book of Mormon. The
Lord didn't dictate to Joseph Smith word for word what should be
written. He inspired Joseph with meanings, and Joseph was free to use
his own language to express them. Joseph was not an educated person,
but he did read the Bible a lot. In dictating the meaning of the
characters, he used the style of language that he was familiar with
and that was appropriate for the situation.
The web page is correct about an absence of historical and
archeological artifacts to support the Book of Mormon. We accept the
Book of Mormon on faith not on scientific investigations (I have an
essay on "Book of Mormon Evidences: Direct or Parallel" that you might
enjoy www.shire.net/mormon/evidence.html). Christians do the same with
the Bible. Yes, there are historical and archeological evidences of
the history of the Bible, but nothing about the spiritual parts of the
Bible. History and archeology can not support the miracles that Christ
performed. History and archeology can not support the inspiration and
guidance through the Spirit that the Apostles had. History and
archeology can not prove the resurrection of Christ, the atonement,
and our salvation. Christians accept those through faith alone.
>>>Mormon teachings are not principally derived from the Book of
Mormon. Mormon doctrine is derived primarily from another Mormon
Scripture, Doctrine and Covenants. Thus, "...doctrinally the Book of
Mormon is a dead book for most Mormons... The Book of Mormon teachings
have little bearing upon current Mormon doctrine"
Well, I guess I'd better stop reading the Book of Mormon, and I guess
my church leaders had better stop teaching from the Book of Mormon....
I suppose the Book of Mormon is a dead book for those who don't read
it :-) The Book of Mormon has great bearing on Mormon doctrine.
>>>Mormons do not find their doctrines about God in the Bible or the
Book of Mormon. Their severest doctrinal deviations come from Doctrine
and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price.
Read "The Nature of God" chapter in my online book www.shire.net/mormon/diety.html
and decide for yourself about this.
No Mormon claims the Book of Mormon contains all Mormon doctrine. The
Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are two books that
contain modern revelations given to modern prophets. Those three books
plus the Bible comprise the "Standard Works" or body of scripture of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Our beliefs and
doctrine come from those four books.
Again, if you'd like me or other LDS to comment on specific statements
from that web page, please quote the statements in a subsequent reply.
>>>Which revelation is the true one? The one by
Brigham Young that blacks are a lesser form of human and not worthy of
the priesthood, or the one by Spencer W. Kimball that allows blacks to
be in the priest hood and why God changed His mind on this issue,
Joseph Smith taught that a man is a prophet only when he speaks as a
prophet. That is, Mormon leaders make many statements that are just
their opinions. Such was that statement by Brigham Young. The
statement by Spencer W. Kimball, however, was given to the Church as a
revelation and was accepted by the Church members as such.
>>also, which revelation concerning polygamy is the right one the one
by Joseph Smith or the one by President Woodruff in 1890 condemning
the practice that was given by God.
We believe that God commanded Joseph Smith and subsequent leaders to
practice polygamy. We also believe that later on, under different
conditions, God commanded Wilford Woodruff to stop the practice. You
see, when God has living Prophets and Apostles, He can give
commandments and change things according to the situations, and the
people aren't left with an un-changing code of conduct dictated by a
2000 year old book (I love the Bible and try to follow its teachings,
but it is scripture given 2000 years ago to a different culture).
Blood sacrifices under the Law of Moses are examples of commandments
given by God and later canceled when conditions had changed.
>>>Also, what is the latest revelation concerning the Mormons take
over of the American Government or have they abandon this most
important prophecy of their leaders Smith and Young,
I assume you're referring to a supposed prophecy that the US
Constitution would hang by a thread and would be saved by the Elders
of Israel (Mormon Elders not Jewish Elders). I say "supposed" because
I've never seen documentation of that prophecy, so I don't know if it
is a true prophecy or just Mormon folk lore. The statement of the
Constitution hanging by a thread and being saved by Elders doesn't
imply a Mormon take over of government. We could brain storm many,
many ways in which that could happen and not have the government taken
over by the Mormons. Time will tell...
>>and who will be their Prophet next season.
We'll find out when Pres. Hinckley dies.
>>>I found your site to be interesting. www.shire.net/mormon/church.html
I'm glad you enjoyed your visit. My reason in spending time in this
forum is to help people understand more about my religion and about my
perspective on things. I don't argue with folks. Instead I answer
questions and then withdraw from the thread. Arguments happen when one
tries to change the beliefs of others.
>>>The Gospel is the good news about the great salvation purchased by
Jesus Christ, by which He reconciled sinful men to a holy G-d.
>>>The Gospel is, therefore, the doctrine which the Son of G-d, our
Mediator, revealed from heaven, in view of the free grace and mercy of
G-d, to all those that repent and believe, deliverance from sin,
death, condemnation, and the wrath of God; which is the same thing as
to say that it promises and proclaims the remission of sin, salvation,
and eternal life
>>>The Gospel is the good news of the death, burial, and resurrection
of Jesus Christ that provides full and free deliverance from the power
and penalty of sin according to the grace of G-d alone through faith
in Jesus Christ alone.
Beautifully expressed!!
>>>Then why the need for another testament when Christ
himself is the complete Word of G-d?
For the same reason He gave the Bible. Yes, Christ himself is the
complete Word of God, but He isn't with us on a daily, continuing
basis. He thus gave His Word through living prophets to those who
lived in the Palestine area before and after His mortal domain.
Because He loves all people, He also gave His Word through living
prophets to those who lived across the ocean. Because He loves all
people, He also gave His Word through living prophets to those who
lived in our time. And, we believe that because He loves all people,
He will continue to give His Word to future people.
The pattern in the Bible is that of living prophets receiving
revelations from God. I don't understand why folks today don't expect
that pattern to continue. They believe in the Bible, yet they expect
His way of dealing with people to change to a non-Biblical way.
>>>As you can see from Romans 16:7, there were more
then 12 apostles. Even Paul was not ordained in order to be one of the
12 (this you can see from his own writings).
In www.shire.net/mormon/church.html I discuss the vacancies that
occurred in the 12 Apostles and how those vacancies were filled. Paul
and Barnabas did have hands laid on their heads before they left. I
don't have my Bible with me, but I believe that is documented in Acts
13:1-3 or something like that. In Acts 14:14 Paul and Barnabas are
referred to as Apostles.
>>>According to Mormon doctrine, how many gods are
there? Will you become a god? Will you one day have your own planet?
You've asked questions that are difficult to
understand unless the answers are read in context. I'm thus posting my
chapter on "Exaltation" from www.shire.net/mormon/exalt.html
Exaltation
Because we have our Latter-day scriptures as companions to the Bible,
we understand the eternal nature of our existence. We understand that
we began as spirit children of our Father in Heaven. We entered this
mortal life to use our freedom of choice or agency in choosing between
God and Satan. After death, we will wait in the spirit world for our
resurrection, and many of us will help teach the Gospel to the spirits
who are there. Finally, after the judgment, we will inherit one of the
many mansions of the Father. Let us now look more deeply into the
scriptures to understand the "why" of all this.
Becoming Like Christ
In his glorious Sermon on the Mount, Jesus taught us to improve
ourselves and become more like him.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after
her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew
5:27-28)
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:43-44)
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also
forgive you;
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father
forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 6:14-15)
Judge not, that ye be not judged. (Matthew 7:1)
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do
ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew
7:12)
The reason for the Savior's emphasis on our becoming more like him was
brought out when the Savior gave us our ultimate goal.
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect. (Matthew 5:48)
The Greek word for "perfect" is teleios, which means full or complete.
Jesus said we should become full or complete, as our Father in Heaven
is full or complete. In giving us this commandment, Jesus put into
proper perspective the grand purpose of our whole existence. The Plan
of Salvation can be summed up in those few words: Be ye therefore
perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. We treat
others as we would be treated, and in so doing we become more like
God. We do not judge others and in so doing we become more like God.
We forgive others and in so doing we become more like God. As we
become like God, we become full or complete, we become perfect.
Let us examine the scriptures to see if they suggest we can become
like God. Paul taught we can become joint heirs with Christ.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with
Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also
glorified together. (Romans 8:16-17)
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an
heir of God through Christ. (Galatians 4:7)
Notice the sequence given by Paul. We are the children of God and then
we become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. One would expect
that an heir of God would inherit the things of God. Further, Peter
taught that we actually partake of the divine nature of God.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God,
and of Jesus our Lord.
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that
pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that
hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that
by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped
the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:2-4,
emphasis added).
Partaking of the divine nature of God means sharing his attributes and
becoming like Him. The Apostle John taught that those who overcometh
sin through Christ will inherit all things from God.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning
and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of
the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son. (Revelation 21:6-7)
From Psalms we learn God will withhold nothing from those who obey his
commandments.
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and
glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
(Psalms 84:11)
When the resurrected Christ visited the Nephites, he told them to
become like him.
And know ye that ye shall be judges of this people, according to the
judgment which I shall give unto you, which shall be just. Therefore,
what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I
am. (3 Nephi 27:27)
Jesus went on to tell the Nephites they would receive the same joy
that he had and would be like him.
And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down
in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the
Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and
I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one; (3 Nephi 28:10)
Through revelation to Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed that when he
(Jesus) finishes his work, those who have been faithful will be made
equal with him.
And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh
angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath
overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the
fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and
the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their
inheritance and be made equal with him. (D & C 88:106-107)
Truly, Jesus Christ is our role model!
We Become Gods
We have finally reached the point in our study where we are able to
understand the glorious purpose of God's plan. We are the literal
children of God. Through obedience to his commandments and repentance,
we remove sin from our lives. This, however, does not remove the
effects of sin from our lives. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ,
the effects of our sins are removed by his blood, and our sins are
forgiven; we become clean and become like the Savior. We become heirs
of God and joint heirs with Christ. We receive all the Father has to
give. In doing this, we fulfil the challenge from the Savior: Be ye
therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon saw the Celestial Kingdom in vision and
learned that all things would be given to those who are celestialized,
and those persons would become gods.
That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed
from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of
the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things--
They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his
fulness, and of his glory;
Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God--
Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things
present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and
Christ is God's. (D & C 76:52,55-56,58-59, emphasis added)
The Lord further elaborated on this beautiful principle when he gave
the glorious revelation about the new and everlasting covenant.
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall
they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then
shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them.
Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels
are subject unto them. (D & C 132:20, emphasis added)
We need to realize that our repentance and our obedience to God do not
bring us to godhood. We can not work ourselves to perfection, no
matter how hard we try. Some say that we reach perfection step by
step, day by day, as we more closely live the gospel. That is not
true. Through repentance and obedience, we reduce the degree of sin in
our lives, although we will never completely remove sin from our
lives, and we thus come unto Christ step by step, day by day. In
return, he allows his atonement to enter our lives and cleanse us.
Those who become perfect will become so because of the atonement, not
because of their righteousness.
Plurality of Gods
We believe it is the Father's plan that those to whom the word of God
comes in the full sense become like him and are gods. This concept
that we can become gods is known in the Church as the plurality of
gods.
Some people say Jesus did not actually mean in Matthew 5:48 that we
should become perfect; only God and Christ are perfect, they say. It
is true that only God and Jesus are perfect, for all persons have
sinned through use of their agency. However, Jesus was not teasing us
or deceiving us; he actually said, Be ye therefore perfect, even as
your Father which is in heaven is perfect. He actually meant that we
should become perfect through obedience to him, through repentance of
our sins, and through cleansing by his Atonement.
The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son
of God, and in a similar vein many Christians accuse us of blasphemy
because we believe we can become gods. In accusing us, they show their
narrow vision of the Father's plan. We have seen that the scriptures
teach that those who overcome sin will receive all things from the
Father. Is it blasphemy to believe a child of God can become like his
or her Father? Is it blasphemy to believe that those who will receive
all things will in fact receive all things? Is it blasphemy to believe
that if God withholds nothing, he does in fact withhold nothing? Is it
blasphemy to believe that those who partake of the divine nature of
God do in fact partake of that divine nature? Is it blasphemy to
believe that those who become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ
do in fact become heirs? Is it blasphemy to believe that Jesus was
serious when he told us to become perfect? Perhaps, the best answer we
can give to those who accuse us of blasphemy is the answer Jesus gave
to those who accused him of blasphemy. Jesus responded by referring to
Psalms 82:6 in which persons who received the word of God were called
gods.
The Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are
gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
Scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John
10:33-36, emphasis added)
The persons who object to the doctrine of the plurality of gods, say,
"What about Isaiah 43:10 where it says there were no Gods before
Jehovah and will be none after him?" That scripture, along with Isaiah
44:8, was discussed in the chapter on The Nature of God. Jehovah was
trying to persuade the Israelites from worshiping the many false gods
of their neighbors, and he wanted them to focus on their God, Jehovah,
who is Jesus Christ. Jesus is perfectly united with our Father in
Heaven and the Holy Ghost, and it is appropriate to refer to them as
"one God" even though there are three distinct personages in that
Godhead. The passages from Isaiah discuss the relationship between God
and Israel and do not address the question of our becoming gods.
The Glory of God
The Lord revealed to Moses that his purpose and glory in creating the
world and all things was that we might receive eternal life.
For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:39)
Eternal is a name for God (D & C 19:10-12). Thus, Eternal Life is
God's life, or life with God and life as he is. Our destiny, if we
allow the full effect of the Atonement to come into our lives, is to
live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and to be like them. Truly,
life is important and has great meaning! Let us strive each day to
love God, to obey his commandments, and to serve his children. Let us
be examples of Christ to the world, that through our lives people may
see him and come to know him.
>>>Don't be mistaken -- price for the sin is shed
blood. Just like with Adam and Eve, just like in times of Moses, same
is today. Without blood there is no forgiveness.
>>>The only difference is in what kind of blood is available to us. It
is not blood of animals like in times of Adam and Moses, but it is
Blood of Jesus, that is perfect enough to pay for all our sins.
I agree completely!
>>>Which means that same old law about blood is still being applied.
It just that it was taken to the next level -- and there is a big
difference between removing a law and taking it to the next level.
Well, the fact remains that people anciently were commanded to shed
animal blood and today we aren't. You call it taking a law to the next
level and I call it a cancellation of a law due to changing
conditions. Either way, God has changed the conditions under which we
conduct our daily lives.
>>>So Joseph Smith taught that you will become not a
small 'g' god, but God. Equal to God. Another God. You further argue
this by citing The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants as
authority.
Don't read any meaning into my use of 'G' instead of 'g' because I
didn't mean any such meaning. Certainly, people who are exalted won't
consider themselves equal to God. They will still worship Him, love
Him, and be grateful for His Son's atonement.
I've explained the Biblical verses that say that we can partake of the
divine nature of God, that we can inherit all things from God, and
that God will withhold nothing from us. Now, people can read and
ponder my posting and decide for themselves.
>>>if a BELEIVER (not just priest or an apostle) has
power to drive out demons and heal sick people, how can you say church
does not have any authority?
Some things happen due to faith while other things happen due to
Priesthood authority. Faith is required for miracles to happen.
Priesthood authority is required for particular ordinances such as
baptism.
>>>Since we on this verse, I would like to know your opinion on it.
Mark 16:17-18 are beautiful verses. I agree with them.
>>>I put myself in place of Joseph for a second. What would I do if I
to see God face-2-face today, right now? I don't know, but for sure I
will not ask which church to join! (even if I to be out of church)
Joseph went to the forest to pray to get that question answered, and
the Father and the Son appeared to him to answer to that question. So,
of course he asked it because that was his reason for kneeling in
prayer.
>>>John the Baptist is DEAD. He has not been resurrected.
Matthew tells us that after Christ was resurrected, many of the Saints
that slept arose and went into Jerusalem and testified. So, there is
Biblical evidence that others besides Christ were resurrected. We
believe that John the Baptist and Peter and James were resurrected.
Now, people who hear our claims can decide for themselves.
>>>"The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ". Why do
you need one?
I answered this in a previous posting. Because God loves all people,
he will speak to them through a living prophet, which is the Biblical
pattern of God's relationship with men and women.
>>>"None of the churches at that time were accepted by Christ and had
the authority of God"
Claiming it is equal to claiming that there is no God. I pointed out
higher that it is impossible to have a situation when there is not a
single believer on this planet.
Mormons have never claimed that all of the people in the churches
during Joseph Smith's time were non-believers or evil. Only that the
churches as organizations were not accepted by Christ and had no
Priesthood authority to perform ordinances. Of course, there are
millions of spiritual, wonderful, loving people who are not Mormons.
>>>Please define then 'priesthood authority', meaning
-- what is it priest can do I can't?
A general definition of 'priesthood authority' is to have power from
God to perform His work, especially to perform ordinances.
Paul taught that
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for
the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Ephesians 4:11-12)
This does not imply that persons without priesthood authority can't
teach and edify others, but Paul listed specific officers in Christ's
church who had priesthood authority.
The Savior called 70 persons to be missionaries, and, I assume, gave
them priesthood authority as he had done with the 12 (Mark 3:14).
After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent
them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he
himself would come. (Luke 10:1)
As the Apostles visited the Saints, they ordained Elders to govern the
local branches of the church.
And when they had ordained them elders in every church [city], and had
prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they
believed. (Acts 14:23)
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order
the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had
appointed thee: (Titus 1:5)
I elaborate on this in www.shire.net/mormon/church.html
>>>Also, please elaborate on 1 Peter 2:5 and 1 Peter 2:9.
Peter is counseling the church members to grow in the gospel and to
taste of the sincere milk that they may grow thereby. He tells them
they are a chosen generation [to take Christ to the world), a
spiritual house, a holy priesthood, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
etc. (combining vs. 5 & 9). I've discussed how people in the local
churches were ordained to particular offices and held the priesthood
power of God. So it is natural for Peter to call them a holy and royal
priesthood.
>>>[Matt 27:52, persons being resurrected after
Christ]I did not find any meaningful explanation -- nobody wants to
give any names, so my opinion here remains unchanged: not only it is
not important who exactly rose from the dead that day, it is would be
very dangerous to build your belief system around speculation on who
could've or could have not risen from the dead that day -- Bible does
not give specific names and I would not trust any other source of
information on this particular issue.
You have a good point. I don't know who the persons were, or how many
of them were there, who were resurrected. I certainly don't claim that
John the Baptist was one of them. I referred to them to establish the
point that others were resurrected after Christ, and it therefore is
plausible that John the Baptist, Peter, and James could have been
resurrected as we Mormons claim.
We do need to remember that the "first" resurrection hasn't happened
yet and will happen when Christ returns. Those who were resurrected in
Jerusalem were, I expect, a small group who were resurrected for a
special purpose of some kind.
>>>Another question here (I bet you'll give me an
answer I expect -- meaning the correct answer, not wrong one, but
still -- I think for those who like to read but never post, it would
very interesting ='-)~ ):
Q.: What is your definition of 'church'?
To me, a 'church' is a group of people who are organized in some
manner to further particular religious goals. I think that states have
legal requirements for churches to be recognized. When the LDS church
was organized in 1830, New York required at least 6 members.
In the context of the New Testament, the Apostles organized churches
in various cities, each having Bishops, Elders, and other officers.
The Apostles were general officers who traveled and ministered in the
various cities. After the deaths of the Apostles, the Bishops over the
cities contended among themselves for regional or "general" control.
Finally, the Bishop of Rome gained power over the other Bishops. (this
is a very simplified description of what happened, so please don't
flame me about it...)
Today, we tend to use the words 'church' and 'denomination' in the
same context.
>>>The only bible scriptures Christ and the original
apostles used in there day was the OT. Those apostles taught and
preached from this book. They saw no need for extra-scriptural
content.
That's right. The New Testament books were being written by the
Apostles and others and hadn't been collected together and canonized
yet.
>>>Sorry, but Jesus himself never equated eternal life and godhood.
That's right, but His Apostles hinted very strongly about it, as I've
discussed twice in previous postings.
This is an example of why I believe we need modern apostles and
prophets and modern revelation to them, as was the case in New
Testament times. The Bible is so open to many interpretations that it
is hard for us to agree on what it means. You've studied the Bible and
have come to your conclusions as to its meanings. To you, the Bible
clearly teaches the gospel as you understand and believe it. Likewise,
I've studied the Bible and have come to my conclusions as to its
meanings. To me, the Bible clearly teaches the gospel as I understand
and believe it. Ditto for that person over there and the one down
yonder.
The people in the New Testament were in similar situations. They had
many, conflicting beliefs about Christ and religion in general.
Because of this, the Apostles, who were living prophets receiving
revelation from God, traveled from city to city to teach the people
the truth. I believe we need such leaders today who are living
prophets and who receive revelation from God. Without them, the
Christian world, and religion in general, will continue to have
different groups who all claim to have the true meaning of the Bible.
>>>please tell me you simply made a typo when you said
that Peter rose from the dead in Mathew 27:52 :-)
What I said wasn't a typo, but I spoke of something you're not
familiar with and my comment wasn't clear to you. So, let me clarify
it.
First the resurrection. The general resurrection of the righteous will
occur when Christ returns, and the general resurrection of the wicked
will occur at the end of the thousand years. There was, however, a
special resurrection of a relatively small group of people that
occurred shortly after Christ was resurrected. This is documented in
Matt 27:52. We don't know who those people were, how many of them were
resurrected, and why they were resurrected, except we know they
testified of Christ in some way.
Next, the Mormon belief that resurrected persons appeared as angels to
Joseph Smith.
The Angel Moroni appeared and gave Joseph the plates from which the
Book of Mormon was translated. Moroni was the last person to write on
the plates and lived about 400+ years after Christ. Since he was the
last to write, we don't know when, where, or how he died. We believe
he was resurrected as part of a special resurrection and appeared to
Joseph.
The resurrected John the Baptist appeared to Joseph in 1829 and
ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood. We know he was resurrected in
a special resurrection because he was wearing his head :-)
About a year later, the resurrected Peter and James, and John who
didn't die (John 21: 20-23) appeared to Joseph Smith and ordained him
to the Melchizedek Priesthood.
Other resurrected Biblical prophets appeared to Joseph at later dates.
The appearance of resurrected persons as Angels in modern times seems
strange to orthodox Christians, but the practice of angels visiting
earth was common in Biblical times. Of course, up until the
resurrection of Christ, the Biblical angels weren't resurrected
persons but were spirits who had not yet taken a mortal body or
spirits of deceased persons.
I hope this clarifies my statement.