>>>While I think present day prophets and apostles have their place,
I think their primary job is for the edification of the church, not
to dictate their perceptions or interpretations of biblical dogma.
Why do I say this? Because even the bible says of itself that it is
of no private interpretation.
I agree that the Bible must be interpreted through the spirit and
not just according to our own beliefs. However, the verses you
referred to state that the Bible is of no private interpretation
because inspired men wrote it.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any
private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy
men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:
20,21
I believe that just as the scriptures were written by inspired
prophets, they should be interpreted by inspired prophets. I'm not
saying that we shouldn't also be inspired as we read the scriptures,
we should, but that we should also have inspired, living prophets,
as the people living in the New Testament times had, to give us
inspired meanings to the scriptures.
>>>So how do we get the closest interpretations?
>>>Easy. This, according to Jesus, is the job of the Holy Spirit which
he left us. He said the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truths.
If the Holy Spirit is leading a person, then this leaves little
doubt in the truth of what the Holy Spirit teaches that person.
>>>This is the expected way we are to study the written word and it
leaves little doubt to misinterpretation if this model is followed.
I agree in principle that that is how it should be done, but in
actual practice it is different. You study the scriptures, praying
for inspiration, and you believe you are inspired in your
interpretations of the words. Likewise, I study the scriptures,
praying for inspiration, and I believe I'm inspired in my
interpretations. The person down the street believes she is
inspired. And Christianity is one big happy camp in which we all
believe the same and are all united in Christ.... The people in the
New Testament times had the same problem, and the living apostles
and prophets at that time traveled and wrote letters to try and
bring the people together. I believe it should be the same today.
>>>So, do you believe that Christ IS come in the flesh?
From the context of the preceding paragraph, I think you're
referring to Christ's first coming. If so, then 'Yes, I believe that
Christ is come in the flesh.' If you're referring to his second
coming then 'Not yet.'
>>>Finally, as further curiosity, where do you stand on the
Creation/Evolution issue?
I believe that God created the universe, the world, etc. and that He
did it through natural law by organizing existing elements. The
following is from www.shire.net/mormon/pre.html
God Organized Our World
We discussed earlier in this chapter that we as God's spirit
children sang for joy as we watched our Heavenly Father create this
earth. Some people say that God created the earth from nothing,
while others say that he organized the earth from existing
materials. Let us clarify this question by studying the context of
the words that denote the creation of the earth. The following
variations of the word creation are used in the Bible: create,
created, createth, Creator, and creation. Let us look at the Hebrew
and Greek meanings to those words to determine the context in which
the words are used. The following table gives the words and their
Hebrew and Greek meanings:
Book English Hebrew Greek Meaning
OT create bârâ to make
OT created bârâ "
OT createth bârâ "
OT Creator bârâ "
NT created ktizo to fabricate, to found, to make
NT Creator ktizoo "
-- -- ktistes a founder
NT creation ktisis [act of] building
Notice that, in all cases, the context is one of building or
fabricating, implying that building materials were used.
Through modern revelation to Joseph Smith, the Lord confirmed that
he did organize the universe and that the elements from which the
universe was made are eternal.
And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the
beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the
heavens and the earth. (Abraham 4:1, emphasis added)
For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element,
inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; (D & C 93:33,
emphasis added)
The words organized and formed imply that elements were used in the
creation of the earth. Because these elements are eternal, they
would have been available for use in the creation of our world.
I have essays about science and religion and evolution that you
might enjoy reading. Keep in mind that they are just my speculation
on things.
One
Mormon's View of the Science -- Religion Debate
>>>Does not Hebrews says that Jesus is the one who has Melchizedek
Priesthood? Maybe your understanding of Melchizedek Priesthood is
different from mine and I hope you can clarify it, but from what I
can see is that there is only one to have Melchizedek Priesthood,
and he is Jesus Himself:
The following is from www.shire.net/mormon/church.html
In Hebrews we read of the authority of God and the manner in which
it is given to man. In chapter 4, Paul talks about Christ as our
great High Priest. In chapter 5 he uses Christ as a type and talks
of the responsibilities of men who hold the authority of God.
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in
things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and
sacrifices for sins:
Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of
the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for
himself, to offer for sins. (Hebrews 5:1-3)
Just as Christ offered himself a sacrifice for sin, so should we
sacrifice for sin through service to others. Just as Christ had
compassion on the ignorant, so should we. Then, in verse 4 we are
told people can not assume the authority of God. People only receive
that authority by the same procedure through which it was given to
Aaron.
And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of
God, as was Aaron. (Hebrews 5:4)
Verse 5 explains that even Jesus did not assume the authority but
received it from his Father.
So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but
he that said unto him. Thou are my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
(Hebrews 5:5)
Let us read from the Old Testament the method by which Aaron
received the authority of God.
And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him,
from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in
the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and
Ithamar, Aaron's sons. (Exodus 28:1)
Aaron did not receive his calling directly from God but received it
by way of Moses who already had the authority. Thus, the pattern
described in Hebrews 5:4 is that men receive the authority of God by
being called to the ministry by persons who have the authority. Now
we can see the importance of the scriptures cited earlier in this
chapter that describe Jesus giving the authority to the Apostles and
they in turn giving it to others. It is significant that the
Apostles laid their hands on the seven men, Barnabas, and Paul when
they gave them authority. We can see from the Old Testament that
this pattern was used when Joshua was called by the Lord.
And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man
in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him:
And set him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the
congregation: and give him a charge in their sight.
And Moses did as the Lord commanded him: and he took Joshua, and set
him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation:
And he laid his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the LORD
commanded by the hand of Moses. (Numbers 27:18-19,22-23, emphasis
added)
Some people say, "Well, that method pertained to the Old Testament,
to the Law of Moses. It doesn't apply to the New Testament and to
the Gospel of Christ". In reply, I say, "It does apply to the New
Testament and to the Gospel of Christ, because it was the method
used by Jesus and by the Apostles throughout the New Testament era,
and it is the method referred to in Hebrews 5:4 which states And no
man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God,
as was Aaron.
Yes, Christ was our great High Priest and had the Melchizedek
priesthood. I believe that when he ordained the Apostles, he gave
the Melchizedek priesthood to them. For example, Phillip baptized
with water, but the apostles had to come to give the Holy Ghost. The
apostles had higher authority than Phillip.
>>>You skip some questions asked by other people
That's true, I do. Many people consider forums as places of argument
and debate. Since I don't want to argue, I use forums in a different
way. I've made postings in this forum in attempts to help people
understand what I believe. I read postings by others to understand
what they have to say. When I think I've explained my beliefs
sufficiently that people should be able to understand them, I stop,
even if there are unanswered questions. I expect people to go back
and answer their own questions by re-reading what I've posted.
I do try, to avoid argument, to not go through more than two or
three responses to questions. Someone asks a question. I answer it.
They ask a clarification question and I answer that. That is two
responses, and usually I try to stop at that point to avoid the
discussion evolving into argument. Even if the person asks a
3rd-response question, I may not answer it if I think the answer is
found in my previous comments. I realize that by stopping this way,
people may think I'm evading questions, but this procedure does keep
arguments from occurring.
As I mentioned, my purpose is to help others understand my
viewpoint. I have no interest in trying to convince them of my
position. Thus, there is no need of going on in endless questions &
answers.
>>>Yes, I was referring to Christ's first coming. The core of the
issue being whether one believes in the deity of Christ. Even many
of the leaders of our biggest and most popular churches doesn't
believe in Christ's deity.
Yes, I'm always surprised when I hear ministers of Christian
churches express disbelief in the Savior's divinity. I believe very
strongly that Jesus is the Christ, that he is the divine Son of God,
that he did take all of our sins upon Himself and that His blood
cleanses us from sin if we come to him in faith, repentance, baptism
(ops... I just opened a new topic of discussion about baptism, so
here it is www.shire.net/mormon/baptism.html and
www.shire.net/mormon/hg.html
if you're interested in the Mormon position on it). I'm grateful for
His love, for His example how I should live. I know that He is the
divine Son of God.
>>>I understand it, however there were several questions when people
asked specific questions on evolving and changing position of
Mormons on several topic and I would love to hear your opinion on
those.
Should I bring those questions back to life?
Yes, if you would do that, it would be helpful. List them in one
post so I or other Mormons can easily find them. Thanks!
>>>I'm find myself intrigued now, as to your thoughts on other hotly
contested matters like, say, Noah and the flood?
To understand this posting, people need to read my essay on Science
and Religion if they haven't already done so. www.shire.net/mormon/science.html
Also, this posting pertains to my personal beliefs and has nothing
to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I accept the Biblical stories, such as the flood, on faith even
though there isn't any direct evidence for them. Creationists say
there is evidence, but the things they cite are parallel evidences.
As I discussed in my essay on evidences www.shire.net/mormon/evidence.html
parallel evidences don't prove anything. At best, parallel evidences
might increase the probability of something being true.
As I explained in my Science & Religion essay, I consider the
scriptural descriptions of our physical world as a model or
simplified description of what really happened. I also consider
scientific theories, such as the creation and evolution, as models.
We have two models that are different, but that is ok because models
aren't intended to be the complete description of something. Models
give a description according to our present knowledge and are
modified as we get more information.
If I'm discussing the scriptures with someone, I feel very much at
home discussing the scriptural model of, for example, the flood. In
discussing the scriptures, I'm focusing on the spiritual aspects,
and the scriptural model of our physical world is fine for that.
If I'm discussing our physical world from the viewpoint of science,
I feel at home using the scientific model of our world, because I'm
not focusing on the spiritual, and the scientific model is
appropriate.
This type of thinking fits in with my left-brained thinking and
allows me to enjoy the company of both religionists and scientists
without worrying about conflicts between the two paradigms.
Behind all of this is my firm belief that however the world was
created, however the flood and Noah actually occurred, God is in
charge of it and what ever happened is under His control.
Eventually, He will bring Science and Religion together into one
paradigm, because truth can't contradict itself.
I do believe Noah was a real person and that something happened to
cause the story of the flood to be handed down in the Hebrew
literature. I have a mental picture of the next life in which there
is a big building full of conference rooms and videos being shown to
show what really happened. One of the first rooms I'd like to visit
is that of the creation of the earth....
Thanks for posting the 7 questions. I'll give my answers in several
postings so it will be easier for people to read. I won't be
answering the questions in the order you gave them.
>>>How many times did Jesus clean the Temple?
Unless I've misunderstood this question, it appears to be a Biblical
question and not directly related to Mormonism, so I'll let you give
us the answer
>>>Is Jesus Christ the one and true Jehovah God? Is
there no others before Him? Or is Jesus a prophet like Joseph Smith,
Elijah, Moses?
Yes, Jesus Christ is the one and true Jehovah. His Father, our Father
in Heaven, was before him because Jesus is His only begotten Son.
Jesus is not a prophet like Joseph Smith, Elijah, or Moses. He is the
divine Son of God, the Messiah, our Redeemer and Savior!
Ops... I forgot to give links to my chapters on The
Nature of God and Jesus as Jehovah for those who would like to read in
more detail my thoughts about this.
www.shire.net/mormon/diety.html
www.shire.net/mormon/jeh.html
>>>Do you pray to any other than Jesus? Or YHWH? Or
Jehovah?
We follow the example the Savior gave in the Lord's prayer and pray to
our Father in Heaven. We pray in the name of Jesus Christ.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that
ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it
you. John 15:16
>>>What about the many wives in heaven issue? I know
the church is not publicly practicing polygamy today, but there is the
history of it.
We believe that a man and his wife who are married in a Mormon temple
and live righteously thereafter will be married in the life to come.
We refer to this as Eternal Marriage, and it is one of the things that
gives us hope, and we look forward to. To read more about this go to
www.shire.net/mormon/marriage.html
where I give Biblical verses that support this belief.
If, for example, a man's wife died and he married a second wife, both
marriages in the Temple, and if the three of them lived righteously,
then both marriages would, in our belief, be for Eternity and he would
have both wives in the life to come. Keep in mind that such an eternal
relationship would be something the three of them would want; it would
not be forced on any of them, for God does not force us, he gives us
our agency to choose.
>>>Question: I have heard that the Church of the
Latter Day Saints teach that men are or can become God's. Is this
true? How are they God's or is it god's?
I answered this before, but I'll repost my chapter at www.shire.net/mormon/exalt.html
for those who didn't read it before. Please read the chapter, because
I give Biblical verses that support our belief. I also give verses
from Mormon scriptures because the chapter was written for a mormon
audience; you can ignore those if you want and focus on the Biblical
verses.
Whether it should be Gods or gods, read my chapter and decide for
yourself. In my chapter, I use Gods, but you should not attach any
special significance to it. People who are exalted will always
consider themselves below Jesus Christ and our Father in Heaven. They
will always worship them as we do now.
I believe this will complete my answers to Question 2.
--------------------------------
Exaltation
Because we have our Latter-day scriptures as companions to the Bible,
we understand the eternal nature of our existence. We understand that
we began as spirit children of our Father in Heaven. We entered this
mortal life to use our freedom of choice or agency in choosing between
God and Satan. After death, we will wait in the spirit world for our
resurrection, and many of us will help teach the Gospel to the spirits
who are there. Finally, after the judgment, we will inherit one of the
many mansions of the Father. Let us now look more deeply into the
scriptures to understand the "why" of all this.
Becoming Like Christ
In his glorious Sermon on the Mount, Jesus taught us to improve
ourselves and become more like him.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not
commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after
her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew
5:27-28)
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do
good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use
you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:43-44)
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also
forgive you;
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father
forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 6:14-15)
Judge not, that ye be not judged. (Matthew 7:1)
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do
ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew
7:12)
The reason for the Savior's emphasis on our becoming more like him was
brought out when the Savior gave us our ultimate goal.
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is
perfect. (Matthew 5:48)
The Greek word for "perfect" is teleios, which means full or complete.
Jesus said we should become full or complete, as our Father in Heaven
is full or complete. In giving us this commandment, Jesus put into
proper perspective the grand purpose of our whole existence. The Plan
of Salvation can be summed up in those few words: Be ye therefore
perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. We treat
others as we would be treated, and in so doing we become more like
God. We do not judge others and in so doing we become more like God.
We forgive others and in so doing we become more like God. As we
become like God, we become full or complete, we become perfect.
Let us examine the scriptures to see if they suggest we can become
like God. Paul taught we can become joint heirs with Christ.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with
Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also
glorified together. (Romans 8:16-17)
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an
heir of God through Christ. (Galatians 4:7)
Notice the sequence given by Paul. We are the children of God and then
we become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. One would expect
that an heir of God would inherit the things of God. Further, Peter
taught that we actually partake of the divine nature of God.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God,
and of Jesus our Lord.
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that
pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that
hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that
by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped
the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2 Peter 1:2-4,
emphasis added).
Partaking of the divine nature of God means sharing his attributes and
becoming like Him. The Apostle John taught that those who overcometh
sin through Christ will inherit all things from God.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning
and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of
the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son. (Revelation 21:6-7)
From Psalms we learn God will withhold nothing from those who obey his
commandments.
For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and
glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
(Psalms 84:11)
When the resurrected Christ visited the Nephites, he told them to
become like him.
And know ye that ye shall be judges of this people, according to the
judgment which I shall give unto you, which shall be just. Therefore,
what manner of men ought ye to be? Verily I say unto you, even as I
am. (3 Nephi 27:27)
Jesus went on to tell the Nephites they would receive the same joy
that he had and would be like him.
And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down
in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the
Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and
I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one; (3 Nephi 28:10)
Through revelation to Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed that when he
(Jesus) finishes his work, those who have been faithful will be made
equal with him.
And again, another angel shall sound his trump, which is the seventh
angel, saying: It is finished; it is finished! The Lamb of God hath
overcome and trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the
fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.
And then shall the angels be crowned with the glory of his might, and
the saints shall be filled with his glory, and receive their
inheritance and be made equal with him. (D & C 88:106-107)
Truly, Jesus Christ is our role model!
We Become Gods
We have finally reached the point in our study where we are able to
understand the glorious purpose of God's plan. We are the literal
children of God. Through obedience to his commandments and repentance,
we remove sin from our lives. This, however, does not remove the
effects of sin from our lives. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ,
the effects of our sins are removed by his blood, and our sins are
forgiven; we become clean and become like the Savior. We become heirs
of God and joint heirs with Christ. We receive all the Father has to
give. In doing this, we fulfil the challenge from the Savior: Be ye
therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon saw the Celestial Kingdom in vision and
learned that all things would be given to those who are celestialized,
and those persons would become gods.
That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed
from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of
the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things--
They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his
fulness, and of his glory;
Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God--
Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things
present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and
Christ is God's. (D & C 76:52,55-56,58-59, emphasis added)
The Lord further elaborated on this beautiful principle when he gave
the glorious revelation about the new and everlasting covenant.
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall
they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then
shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them.
Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels
are subject unto them. (D & C 132:20, emphasis added)
We need to realize that our repentance and our obedience to God do not
bring us to godhood. We can not work ourselves to perfection, no
matter how hard we try. Some say that we reach perfection step by
step, day by day, as we more closely live the gospel. That is not
true. Through repentance and obedience, we reduce the degree of sin in
our lives, although we will never completely remove sin from our
lives, and we thus come unto Christ step by step, day by day. In
return, he allows his atonement to enter our lives and cleanse us.
Those who become perfect will become so because of the atonement, not
because of their righteousness.
Plurality of Gods
We believe it is the Father's plan that those to whom the word of God
comes in the full sense become like him and are gods. This concept
that we can become gods is known in the Church as the plurality of
gods.
Some people say Jesus did not actually mean in Matthew 5:48 that we
should become perfect; only God and Christ are perfect, they say. It
is true that only God and Jesus are perfect, for all persons have
sinned through use of their agency. However, Jesus was not teasing us
or deceiving us; he actually said, Be ye therefore perfect, even as
your Father which is in heaven is perfect. He actually meant that we
should become perfect through obedience to him, through repentance of
our sins, and through cleansing by his Atonement.
The Jews accused Jesus of blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son
of God, and in a similar vein many Christians accuse us of blasphemy
because we believe we can become gods. In accusing us, they show their
narrow vision of the Father's plan. We have seen that the scriptures
teach that those who overcome sin will receive all things from the
Father. Is it blasphemy to believe a child of God can become like his
or her Father? Is it blasphemy to believe that those who will receive
all things will in fact receive all things? Is it blasphemy to believe
that if God withholds nothing, he does in fact withhold nothing? Is it
blasphemy to believe that those who partake of the divine nature of
God do in fact partake of that divine nature? Is it blasphemy to
believe that those who become heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ
do in fact become heirs? Is it blasphemy to believe that Jesus was
serious when he told us to become perfect? Perhaps, the best answer we
can give to those who accuse us of blasphemy is the answer Jesus gave
to those who accused him of blasphemy. Jesus responded by referring to
Psalms 82:6 in which persons who received the word of God were called
gods.
The Jews answered him saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but
for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are
gods?
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the
Scripture cannot be broken;
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the
world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John
10:33-36, emphasis added)
The persons who object to the doctrine of the plurality of gods, say,
"What about Isaiah 43:10 where it says there were no Gods before
Jehovah and will be none after him?" That scripture, along with Isaiah
44:8, was discussed in the chapter on The Nature of God. Jehovah was
trying to persuade the Israelites from worshiping the many false gods
of their neighbors, and he wanted them to focus on their God, Jehovah,
who is Jesus Christ. Jesus is perfectly united with our Father in
Heaven and the Holy Ghost, and it is appropriate to refer to them as
"one God" even though there are three distinct personages in that
Godhead. The passages from Isaiah discuss the relationship between God
and Israel and do not address the question of our becoming gods.
The Glory of God
The Lord revealed to Moses that his purpose and glory in creating the
world and all things was that we might receive eternal life.
For behold, this is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the
immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:39)
Eternal is a name for God (D & C 19:10-12). Thus, Eternal Life is
God's life, or life with God and life as he is. Our destiny, if we
allow the full effect of the Atonement to come into our lives, is to
live with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and to be like them. Truly,
life is important and has great meaning! Let us strive each day to
love God, to obey his commandments, and to serve his children. Let us
be examples of Christ to the world, that through our lives people may
see him and come to know him.
>>>One of my favorite contradictions of doctrine in
this false church is the doctrine concerning the black race. Until the
1970's blacks where considered inferior to whites, whites having a
special place within the church and blacks carried the curse of Cain.
They where not allowed to participate in the priesthood.......but
suddenly they where allowed in the 1970's! what changed?
This is what changed -- revelation to a modern Prophet!
--------------------------
OFFICIAL DECLARATION—2
To Whom It May Concern:
On September 30, 1978, at the 148th Semiannual General Conference of
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the following was
presented by President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First
Presidency of the Church:
In early June of this year, the First Presidency announced that a
revelation had been received by President Spencer W. Kimball extending
priesthood and temple blessings to all worthy male members of the
Church. President Kimball has asked that I advise the conference that
after he had received this revelation, which came to him after
extended meditation and prayer in the sacred rooms of the holy temple,
he presented it to his counselors, who accepted it and approved it. It
was then presented to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, who
unanimously approved it, and was subsequently presented to all other
General Authorities, who likewise approved it unanimously.
President Kimball has asked that I now read this letter:
June 8, 1978
To all general and local priesthood officers of The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world:
Dear Brethren:
As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the
earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have
responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the
Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with
a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the
privileges and blessings which the gospel affords.
Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the
Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan,
all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and
witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been
withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our
faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple
supplicating the Lord for divine guidance.
He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the
long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the
Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its
divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that
flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly,
all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the
priesthood without regard for race or color. Priesthood leaders are
instructed to follow the policy of carefully interviewing all
candidates for ordination to either the Aaronic or the Melchizedek
Priesthood to insure that they meet the established standards for
worthiness.
We declare with soberness that the Lord has now made known his will
for the blessing of all his children throughout the earth who will
hearken to the voice of his authorized servants, and prepare
themselves to receive every blessing of the gospel.
Sincerely yours,
SPENCER W. KIMBALL
N. ELDON TANNER
MARION G. ROMNEY
The First Presidency
Recognizing Spencer W. Kimball as the prophet, seer, and revelator,
and president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it
is proposed that we as a constituent assembly accept this revelation
as the word and will of the Lord. All in favor please signify by
raising your right hand. Any opposed by the same sign.
The vote [of the thousands in attendance at the conference] to sustain
the foregoing motion was unanimous in the affirmative.
>>>which revelation by Joseph Smith is the correct
version? background: Joseph Smith changed the details of the manner in
which the 'truth (i.e., book of mormon [lies]) was revealed to him
throughout his life.
>>>So again I ask which version is the correct version, or should I
ask which version are they currently passing off as the truth?
In order to reply to this, I'll need specifics about the differences
so I can study them. I'm not familiar, off the cuff, with what you're
referring to.
>>>Also, what was the manner and circumstances of his
death? Do you know?
This is from Section 135 of the Doctrine & Covenants.
-------------------------
1 TO seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we
announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith
the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June,
1844, about five o’clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from
150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming:
I am a cdead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in
the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they
were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.
2 John Taylor and Willard Richards, two of the Twelve, were the only
persons in the room at the time; the former was wounded in a savage
manner with four balls, but has since recovered; the latter, through
the providence of God, escaped, without even a hole in his robe.
>>>baptism by proxy...... has any of the good mormons
out here heard of this little tidbit of mormonism............they keep
it fairly under wraps from most. It is the practice of baptizing
individuals after their deaths.......please show where this has basis
in Christianity.
The practice of vicarious baptism was known in the New Testament
church, because Paul referred to it as part of his argument for the
resurrection.
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead
rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (1
Corinthians 15:29)
Paul did not explain the practice, implying the Corinthians were
familiar with it. He did not explicitly approve or disapprove of it,
but the fact that he used it as part of his argument for the
resurrection implies his approval since he was quick to disapprove of
practices that were not of God.
>>>Bible teaches that you have one life. And if you
don't make it right first time, there is no second chance.
I agree. How about people living in the jungles of South America who
have never had visits from Christian missionaries and who die without
knowing anything of Christ? Are they doomed to Hell forever?
Mormons say, "no". We believe they will have an opportunity in the
spirit world, prior to their resurrection, to hear of Christ and to
decide if they want to follow him or not. We believe water baptism is
necessary www.shire.net/mormon/baptism.html and so we do vicarious
baptisms for them in our temples. After they, in the spirit, have
heard of Christ, they decide if they want to accept the baptisms done
in their behalf. If not, it is as though the baptisms were never done.
The baptisms aren't forced on them.
The Apostle Peter spoke of this time between death and the
resurrection and explained it is a time of learning.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,
that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but
quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God
waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein
few, that is eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:18-20)
Jesus was put to death in the flesh, and then he went to a place
referred to as a "prison" and preached to the spirits of the people
who had been killed by the flood during Noah's time. In the next
chapter of Peter's epistle, he said Christ visited and taught the
spirits of the dead that they might have the same gospel as do the
living.
Wherein they [the Gentiles] think it strange that ye run not with them
to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you.
Who [the Gentiles] shall give account to him that is ready to judge
the quick and the dead.
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,
that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live
according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:4-6)
>>>So, if you believe yourself to grow into godhood,
then please, say so outright rather than being vague.
I did say it, twice, in my previous posts.
>>>Also in 1977 Ensign magazine quoted the following from high
ranking Mormon leader Bernard P. Brockbank....." It is true taht
many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than
is worshipped by the Mormons."
If you want to read Elder Brockbank's sermon, go to
http://www.lds.org/
and
search on "different jesus" in all publications.
Here is the portion of the sermon that contains the quotation from
Elder Brockbank that was given in the question. It begins with a
quotation from the London Times about the Mormons (given in quotes),
and then Elder Brockbank explains the reporter's remarks about a
different Jesus.
-----------------------
"Are the Mormons Christians? Certainly they claim to be followers of
Christ and hence entitled to take their place alongside other
denominations as another Christian church. …
"In fact, there is good reason for regarding them as a new religion
rather than as another variety of Christianity. The Christ they
follow is both the Christian Messiah of the New Testament, and the
Risen Christ who visited the New World after the end of His ministry
in the old one. Traditional Christianity—Roman Catholic [and]
Protestant … —rejects the very existence of this Christ who
reappeared on earth after the Ascension, and so the Christ followed
by the Mormons is not the Christ followed by traditional
Christianity.” (“Alcohol, tea, and smoking banned,” The London
Times, June 18, 1976, special supplement on Mormons, p. II.)
It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different
Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, from the Church of
England’s Articles of Religion, article one, I quote: “There is but
one living God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions.”
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and a
Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. We also
believe that the trinity of the Godhead is made up of three separate
personages—God, the Eternal Father; Jesus Christ, the Son of God—our
Savior; and the Holy Ghost. These two concepts of the Trinity and
their attributes are completely different.
The Jesus Christ of the holy scriptures has a body of flesh and
bones and passions before and after his resurrection.
After his resurrection the Savior visited his apostles and said unto
them: “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me,
and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
“And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his
feet.” (Luke 24:39-40.)
------------------------------
Thus, we see that it was the author of the London Times article who
said that "the Christ followed by the Mormons is not the Christ
followed by traditional Christianity". In his remarks, Elder
Brockbank explained why the newspaper reporter said that.
"It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different
Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons or The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. For example, from the Church of
England’s Articles of Religion, article one, I quote: “There is but
one living God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions.”
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints worships a God and
a Jesus Christ with bodies, with parts, and with passions. We also
believe that the trinity of the Godhead is made up of three separate
personages—God, the Eternal Father; Jesus Christ, the Son of God—our
Savior; and the Holy Ghost. These two concepts of the Trinity and
their attributes are completely different."
Elder Brockbank then went on to explain why the Mormons worship a
God with body, parts, and passions.
"The Jesus Christ of the holy scriptures has a body of flesh and
bones and passions before and after his resurrection.
"After his resurrection the Savior visited his apostles and said
unto them: “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle
me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me
have.
“'And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his
feet.” (Luke 24:39-40.)'
So, yes, the Latter-day Saints worship a different Jesus than the
traditional churches. The traditional churches worship the God first
defined by the Council of Nice, in 325 AD and refined by other
councils later on, a God without body, parts, and passions. The
Latter-day Saints worship the resurrected Jesus Christ of the Bible
who appeared to the Apostles with his glorified, resurrected body;
the Apostles were able to feel His body, and He ate mortal food
(Luke 24). When this resurrected Christ ascended to Heaven, the
people watching the ascension were told that Christ world return as
they saw Him leave, i.e. with a resurrected body.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was
taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up,
behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into
heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
(Acts 1:9-11)
I have discussed Biblical scriptures about the nature of God. If
you're interested in my thoughts about this, go to www.shire.net/mormon/diety.html
I haven't located the sermon by President Hinckley, but I expect he
was talking about the same thing as Elder Brockbank.
Mormons believe there is life after death, and that people who
haven't had a "full" chance to hear of Christ will have that chance
as spirits after they have died.
One of the Biblical scriptures that we use to support this belief
are 1 Peter 3: 18-20 I've discussed that scripture in my previous
posting on Question 5.
The Rev. J. R. Dummelow, Queens' College Cambridge, in his "The One
Volume Commentary" has some interesting comments on 1 Peter 3:18-20
First 1 Peter 3:18-20. "The whole passage clearly means that Christ,
as a spirit, preached to certain spirits, who had been disobedient
to the end of their earthly life. This preaching took place between
His death and resurrection, and its purpose was that, by hearing the
gospel, these men might have an opportunity of repentance. St. Peter
does not say that a place of repentance is still left for men after
death. That is neither affirmed nor denied in NT.; but this passage
makes rather against that for such a hope; for the point is that
these men did receive such an opportunity because they had not heard
the gosepl in their earthly life. St. Peter considered that the
Jews, unlike the men of Noah's time, had known something of Christ."
(p. 1046)
Mormons believe that this preaching of the gospel to the spirits of
persons who did not fully hear of Christ during their mortal life
still occurs.
>>>"This preaching took place between His death and resurrection,
and its purpose was that, by hearing the gospel, these men might
have an opportunity of repentance."
>>>1 Peter 3:18-20 does not state either when this took place or
that salvation was preached to them.
It's pretty clear to me, as it was to Rev. Dummelow, that the
preaching occurred after Christ was crucified.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the
unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the
flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1
Peter 3:18-19
He was put to death in the flesh, quickened by the Spirit, and
preached to the spirits in prison. Considering that it was Christ
who did the preaching, it's a reasonable assumption that he was
preaching salvation.